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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 3 weeks ago #385974

  • zuperman
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Hi

It's no secret I've talked about Squadron Wars for years and I've been trying to make it work for so long it's crazy. But under the hood, I'm always trying to figure out a system and I think I finally managed to get something going. Here is my idea and I want to ask for feedback before I continue in this line. Let me know what you think and here is why it has been so problematic for me to make it work:

The problem with squadron wars is that not everyone is online and depending on the hour very few people are online. Also, maybe the people that are online are not in squadrons or on different squadrons. Imagine 8 people, 1 player with no squadron, 2 players in squad A, 3 in squad B, 1 in squad C and 1 in squad D. How can you make it a squadron war like that? Also, you have to add the complexity of 2 of those players are rank 4, other is rank 7 and others are rank 47 who could obliterate the other players easily. To top it all, then some subscribers can switch sides in mid-game... 

Behind the scenes, I've been working on this system. A new screen that will work as a waiting lobby. I cannot predict the order people will join the game and at what time. So the system will have to wait until a game is going to begin to decide where everyone will be placed. Since I also have to decide stuff based on your rank, it's a mess to do it otherwise.

My point is, that there is no way to create squad wars in the current system and I have to rewrite it. I cannot allow people to choose an allied or central side when they are playing squad vs squad otherwise someone will always try to abuse the system by switching sides and unbalancing the teams. That's why many online games have a lobby waiting until everyone joins and I think it's the only way to do this.

So, in summary:
1) Squad vs Squad games will mean you cannot pick sides. The system will assign it for you to try to put all your squadmates together.
2) There will be a waiting time for everyone to join. I'll play around with this, probably 30 seconds to 1 minute. Or until the game is full and ready.

The squadron ranking will need to be completely rewritten to adjust for this.

Thoughts? Ideas? Questions?


 
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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 3 weeks ago #385975

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please make it so only your squad is on the same side i got sick of squad wars and the stupidity of not shooting a red if he was in your squadron (you know who you are )
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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 3 weeks ago #385976

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Will the rooms where the battles will take place be separate from people who don't like the competition? Will the system balance it automatically? Example 2x2, if an 3rd player arrives will he wait as spectator at the lobby? Alternates sides between match of 70 minutes? To avoid players who always take only a side. Will the system be renewed in per week or month? To gave chance for all squads no farming or not shoot at each other. The winning squad will have an special highlight displayed in the game? Shields based in ranks is unfair in a competition where all who agreed to be in supposed to have enough skills to fight against others squads.





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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 3 weeks ago #385977

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Reactivating Squad wars? I can see huge problems straight away, if you want to play and you're not yet in a squad, what if you're u don't want to participate in such a mission? None shooting of reds if they are ex squad members, which still goes on, some even go and hide at the bridge to leave one blue against 3 reds, this happened to me recently.
The biggest problem would be that many take it to seriously and start chatting nasty words, claiming aimbot, spreading hostilities amongst others squads, the cry of we're #1 just seems to winde people up the wrong way, off course it is what it is and if you do reactivate the squad wars I hope it will be fair games without any crying, I do appreciate your efforts and hard work Zup but I don't understand why you would want to go back when forward is the way. 
 
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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 3 weeks ago #385978

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Squad Wars was never done really. There was a ranking but the whole system behind squad wars was never finished and that's why it was a mess. People were just competing for a useless ranking that made no real sense.
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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 3 weeks ago #385979

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I suggest the squad war per week or month. Each season Zup can controll the time when start and finish it. It can be applicable to the top list of players.





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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 3 weeks ago #385980

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I think rank classification should go by how many Kills, Hangers and wins you have, it seems you have upset certain people with the rank classification changes and now they are leaving and unsubbing, the individuals were the best players to play against always epic games that would end in a draw, it would be ashame to see the brothers go, I hope they change their minds, Big up Frits n Dusty, I hope you have a change of heart xx
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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 3 weeks ago #385982

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[justify]I dont think squadwars is good idea for this game, ok its cool when a lot of people are online but when you are only 5-6 players in game and some leaves after 10' playing.. I dont think its worth your time of coding as i can see from here people complaining, yelling in game for getting to competitive, but is you want to code it im not against V's idea for once a week/month/day[/justify]
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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 3 weeks ago #385983

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The idea of squad wars is cool, but of course it will depend of way that it will be implemented in the game . The problem is that it came after a long hiatus since  it was removed before, so many just stopped the game. And I also see part of lack of players is because of planes that became all locked to subscribers, even people having bought it with real money, as my friend did. He  had spent about 240 £ to buy his planes, and he was an assiduous subscriber. He had always renewed his sub every month, but he as others got upset because of way that the planes were locked, because it was not so cool to with people who bought planes with real money. I know those planes was to subscribers but with the time it was free to buy and use without sub, then  suddenly lockeds , really made people decline to play. And others also stopped game because they can't use their ww1 planes and for some reason can't pay the subscription. Maybe they are kids and the parents don't leave they to spend money in games and  the others are adults who never had paid any cent to the game, because they don't want to, they are (freeloaders) of free ww2 rooms



All depend of way

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[NLRMysterio post=385982 userid=41057"][justify]I dont think squadwars is good idea for this game, ok its cool when a lot of people are online but when you are only 5-6 players in game and some leaves after 10' playing.. I dont think its worth your time of coding as i can see from here people complaining, yelling in game for getting to competitive, but is you want to code it im not against V's idea for once a week/month/day[/justify][justify] [/justify]






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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 3 weeks ago #385984

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If there were more players the squad wars would work for this game. The waiting room thing is exactly the way other games do their versions of squad wars and they also have a place for "legionnaires" who arent in a squad or whos squad isnt playing the squad wars at the moment. The legionnaires can join squads who need additional folks to have enough numbers to play in the squad wars format. Its great and a lot of fun but you really need enough players to make it work and be fun. Also, the squad wars results do not count for or against your stats in other games, so you dont really get anything but credits for playing, not kills, stats, etc. which is both a good thing and bad thing in my opinion. You play for hours and dont make any progress in rank or towards other in game incentives that you normally get if you just play random battles, but nobody can pad their stats while playing squad wars. 

Anyway, I like the idea and think it could work if there were enough people to make it more than just the same 2 or 3 teams against each other over and over and over and over and over... well you get the idea. If its just the same 6-10 folks who play squad wars it would get just as toxic as it has been with all the arguing, bickering, name calling, etc. 

It would be cool if it worked. 








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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386023

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Hi all. I left DF when Squad points had gone and the game lost the last interesting or competititve stuff in here. Will Squad Wars make this grow up again? Maybe, good fun always calls others to come back. 

My suggestions:
-Make a Squad Wars only for WW1 planes (against WW2 planes abusers).
-Do that being in a side and win or lose makes sense: give points or money to winners (perhaps some of it to redistribute in the real Squad), maybe the access to better planes after some victories. And in the other hand, punish the losers. The main idea is to promote the loyalty to your blue side making it worthy.
-Can we see who is playing in the Squad Wars site b4 entering? Maybe that will help to choose the right side earlier but without changing side later.
-If sides were not elegible, could the program send to each side more equally players? ( Side A: lvls 47, 10, 5 - Side B: lvls 45, 17, 4)
-In Squad Wars, why not giving low level pilots (under 17) to shot down a pro with 2 or 3 hits? Or making pro pilots to use only the below half planes? 

My vote to weekly or monthly goals!

Don't give up Zup! Make Dogfight Great Again! :)
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Last edit: by Ailred TREPPO.

Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386024

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Some of the things you mention are already in the system. Lower ranked players now have a "shield" so that higher ranks need to shoot them more times.
To be able to create better-balanced teams, I have to remove the option to be able to select sides. This way there is a lobby and the server assigns the players automatically to each side once everyone that is required joined the room. This is what I was explaining.




 

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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386026

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I think players and squad have the ability to communicate and arrange for squad mates to be online at a certain time the next day or when they are able to have everyone on in squad chat or even on their squad page in the forum. But honestly having rank 4 or 7 on one side and rank 40+ on the other isnt a big issue either because thats how it is in regular missions now. The only thing is and i know not everyone will like it but the squad wars should be only ww1, and the noob shield should be lifted to be fair. That way everyone will have matching planes. And really when it comes right down to it the reason every songle one of us has joined is because of the ww1 era planes.  And then if the system works later down the road have ww2 room and by then hopefuly more players will have joined...there is alot of players joining now, everyday there are new names in the list if theyd just stay...
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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386027

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I forgot to add that as far as not having enough players is it possible that a squad can send an invitation to another player who isnt in a squad to help them as an ally, and if that player accepts the invite then they can enter the room, if the room is full then they will just go on to regular missions. Or if a squad has a full team and the opposing team can only come up with 2 player then only 2 or 3 players will be allowed in and not the full team. Being unbalanced is fine as long as iit isnt one player alone vs a full team. Have a 2 player minimum to participate.

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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386028

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One thing is that noobies or even players that are above rank 10 still don't use the forum and many don't know it even exists or they just was never interested in using it....and the very low rank players don't even know there is a squad chat to communicate or they aren't subscribers and don't have access to world chat so many of them are in the dark about alot of things, I've tried to get squad members to check squad chat for info and they are like...what's squad chat? Or,... I see squad chat but I never look at it? .... So to get everyone on the same page and interested in.participating something needs to be posted on the main page before you enter a mission, like on the page where it shows online players.....and I actually thought it would be a good idea to have something to announce important info anyway...so that players know they need to look and see what's going on and they won't be left in the dark, I think players would play more if they knew what's going or they knew that there's progress being made for new events.

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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386029

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Everybody can use the world chat up to rank 12, no matter the subscription. I believe at rank 12 they are no longer noobs and they should have played enough to understand all mission types and the game. If they don't chat is because they don't feel like it. I made sure everybody could use all features without subscribing up to a high enough rank so that they can discover the full game.

Also, the game notifies new players of what to do. I even added audio to help with the instructions in case they skip reading the text tutorial. They are notified that they should buy airplanes, how to upgrade them, how to buy a tank and a parachute, and that they should join a squadron to get more benefits. If they don't know, it's because they don't pay attention to multiple popups and they never bothered to type in the chat to find out they can chat. Consider that up to last year there was zero instructions on how to do this and people joined just fine. Now they even have tutorials in the game.
 
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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386030

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Hi Joaquin,
It's great news and very heartening to see so much progress in Grechland. ;)

I look forward to checking things out more when I get some free time. Speaking of time - when I was actively promoting the [NLR] , with all of the global time zones (and complications like Pacific Daylight Savings Time) I found it difficult to coordinate times for the squad to play together. Coming up with a global  Grechland time clock could be helpful. 

I'm seriously impressed by your creativity and tenacity. ​​​Salute!

McFate

 
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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386031

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A tricky problem.
Maybe it would be simpler to have a booking system.
Squads could use the forum to challenge each other, organize their teams for a  mutually agreeable time and choice of game type, then book sole use of one game slot for a set period of time, say 1 hour.
 
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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386032

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Maybe an official channel on discord can be created to manage those squad teams. The advantage of discord is that different of the forum, on discord people can receive notifications.
To encourage people to use the discord app, it could have an icon or an warning on the sq chat redirecting to download .





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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386033

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One way to make the proposed squad wars play more even would be to have only certain planes that can be used for squad wars, regardless of your rank. If everyone in squad wars could only play a DV or Nieuport 17 as an example, people who are level 12, 20, or whatever can be competitive against folks who are rank 40+








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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386035

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And about veterans using noob account to get shield protection in squad wars? hmmm not fair.
I suggest an minimum level 30 to participating, of course no shields protection. Who agreed to participate supposly would have enough skills to right?!





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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386036

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not using noob account, just everyone playing in the same tier aircraft instead of pitting top tier planes vs. low tier planes. Most other gaming platforms do a similar thing and you have to join the squad war with a certain tier aircraft.

What would be unfair is pitting a Schuckert vs. a Nieuport 17 for a squad war battle.

Opening up squad wars to lower tier players would not only be fun for them but also to encourage them to play during squad wars times, create new squads, etc. It should not be limited to only top tier players who have been around for years, but new players too who will then be around for years to come. 

In a different game platform I have played roughly 6k battles total lifetime and am pitted against people who have played 90k battles or more in clan wars, but because we are all playing the same tier I have more than a fighting chance and the games are wildly fun and exciting. That to me is what this game lacks. 








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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386037

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Sorry I don't understood. You agree that on these squad wars would not have any kind of shields protection between the participants right?! Took about 30 hits to kill and they only 4 at us isn't fun. Lol trying get their 6 and watch they crashes on ground also wouldn't fun to them



Viper10{WP} post=386036 userid=36782not using noob account, just everyone playing in the same tier aircraft instead of pitting top tier planes vs. low tier planes. Most other gaming platforms do a similar thing and you have to join the squad war with a certain tier aircraft.

What would be unfair is pitting a Schuckert vs. a Nieuport 17 for a squad war battle.






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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386039

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Yes, I agree that the shield be removed for squad wars matches. All players in the same tier aircraft, same number of hits to bring them down, all equal except overall experience. 

Just by having all the planes act roughly the same will make newer players more competitive in the game and newer, less experienced players would likely have fun and play more. At least that is how I would hope it would go. 








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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386043

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Yup i agree with V and Viper, i think the newer players would play more because it would give them a taste of what they have to look forward to if they continue to play, i think they learn more and become better competetors quiker when playing against higher ranked players. Alot of new players now have top devices and controlers and are pretty good shooters from the start and lifting the noob shield would be fair. Maybe the aspirants should have it but deffinately once they reach rank 3 or 4 theyr caught on to aiming and shooting pretty good.
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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386044

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I know that for years many players were looking forward to the squadron wars concept or game mission and it does sound like a challenge for you zuperman.  All the reasons you explain are very valid ones and I know you will find a way to make it happened. Im not a fan of that mission mode because we already have it in the game, not as all teammates from a squadron but as team mates on the German or allied side. As you mention it will be hard to have teammates from a particular squadron at the same time of day playing, so they will have to pair with players from other squadrons…and or non-squadron players; so….is it a real squadrons war? Or more like we already have in the team dogfight mission?
.

The thing that separates this game from others out there is the ability to keep on playing and having fun without having to wait. Excuse me but World of Tanks sucks…in my opinion. I dislike that you must wait between games on a lobby for a few minutes for people to join in, then once you are in game you get kill and you just become and spectator, what kind of fun in that? Not a fan of the waiting in lobby thing.  I know you always put hard work behind your programing and I’m sure it will turn out great, but this is a mission I would probably skip, and I hope you would give some type of choice for those that are not interested on getting stuck in this mission.
.
As for what I have read from other players I believe its unfair to pair new players with more experience players in this type of mission or gameplay.   If they are going to be pair with top players of course they need their shield otherwise they will get massacred and abuse like it happened when the squadron wars was a thing. I get we all want to be competitive but when the competitions turn abusive towards new player just to make point, we will have the same result as the last time…the new players will walk away from the game. Since the squadrons war list was put away, I have seen an increase of new players staying in the game. Only you have the stats to corroborate that zuperman, this is just my impression and what I have been seeing.  I see old players helping again the new players and giving them a fighting chance and not abusing them for the points.
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I can’t understand why top players are complaining about the shield the noobs have, this are training wheels for them, so they can have a fighting chance. New players do not know how to aim right, and we are afraid of them? New players are still learning the dynamics of the planes and on top of that most of them are in inferior planes, a true disadvantage.  Yes, I get some experience player could start a new account as a noob just because he lost his old account or just do it to gain an advantage.  But hey he is still flying a crappie low level plane and all experience players can outmaneuver him and take him down, the thing is that we play in a comfort zone of head of shooting. So, if you identify a good head on shooting noob…then change your strategy.  But to put the noobs at disadvantage against TOP Experience Players just because a few bad apples are tricking the systems it’s not fair on the real new players that are trying to get an understanding of the game.
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Again, I am unable to play for now and God willing when I do come back; I will try to skip this mission. This is just my opinion for you to think about and try to cultivate new players into staying in the game.  Zuperman I’m sure the mission will be great once you figure it out, always grateful for your hard work and toys.
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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386045

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Waiting in a lobby for a long time is a pain. That's why I will try to make it a maximum of 30 seconds, and once the game is on, it's on. If you get killed you don't continue as a spectator. You just restart at your base like always. The point is, I will try to make the waiting time as little as possible for squad wars.

As for the shield, no way I will remove the noob shield. Since I added it, the number of players staying in the game has increased more than ten times. Some of the players that complain about the shield are actually the players that drive away new players on a daily basis. I added a stats system that figures out which player plays against who, and guess what... I see players that join 1 or 2 games and leave forever. And some that stay for several games. And the "funny" thing, is that players that join and leave forever, usually play against the same 2 people that are MORAF. I won't name who, but trust me, I ignore petitions to remove the shield because they are responsible that I added the shield in the first place. The system right now works fine, a WW2 airplane is very superior to any WW1 airplane. And the shield is only for noobs when going against someone who is way superior in rank. Some of these MORAF forgot that they need to train the noobs and help them out to become better. Instead, they go and kill them 10 times in a roll when they are ranked 1 or 2, just so they get points and stats, ignoring that the player will probably never come back again and making everyone lose potential teammates. In my view, that's very wrong.

I also don't understand what's the problem with old players creating a new account and beginning with a shield. Why is this even a problem? Once they reach a certain level they don't have a shield at all and these players will be stuck creating new accounts and never level up. That's their choice, it has almost no impact on the overall experience and certainly no impact on the players in higher rank that will almost never see them.

Remember, the idea is that more and more players join in, arriving at a point where the server will not match higher ranks with lower ranks and you won't ever see someone with a shield. The shield is only visible because not enough people are playing at the same time and then you get mixed in the same room. I hope that with time this will happen less and less.



 
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Last edit: by zuperman.

Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386047

  • Doggy Dix
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I wish you limit to 4 players on each side... If its full on allied and you wanna play in that particular game the player should have to be counting with being spawned on central side...that will say if there is a empty spot. That going to prevent  those exceptional loop sided games, that occures now an then. And even avoid that players switch sides when they realize their side going to be defeated...all to get some extra points on expense of their old teammates...

And yes i realize sometimes you need to respawn in game so a delay  lets say 15 sec to avoid someone else join up and steal your spot, when you doing a respawn, to shift plane or just to get rid of lag ..

If you favor a particular side then you spawn into a new game if hit the allied or central button, that will say if the4 spots in a ongoing game is  filled with all 4 spots on that chosen side already... But if hit just the play button you spawn into a game randomly and fill up an empty spot in a ongoing game with your default airplane.

Could even be nice to have opportunity to shift plane on the take off area like you can do when land in a cute and chose walk and then determine if you go tank  mc or horse...
watch your six,dude
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Last edit: by Doggy Dix.

Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 2 weeks ago #386050

  • |111th| tBiggs
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Hi Zup, I have a couple of suggestions that perhaps may be helpful,

Who is your target audience for squad wars? I think it should probably be your more frequent and committed users. For this reason I also suggest removing the noob shield or any other handy cap for that matter. It takes away the pride of downing a high ranked player. Also remember, in a squad war, higher ranked players will be trying very hard to protect their squad noobs — it’s a far more controlled environment.

I’m not sure if squad wars is the highest on the impact vs effort chart… yet. Are you familiar with Game Ranger? I know this may require new architecture but I firmly believe you would have massive success introducing the ability for players to host games themselves. (Choosing things like; mission type, number of players, game description i.e. 3v3, rank 30+ only, etc.) This would also help with the noob issue, as MORAF would want to be playing ‘pro’ games together. Once this capability was implemented, squad wars would be straightforward to implement. Obvious benefits I see are:
  • Users can play with similar ranked players or with their friends
  • Users can play their favourite missions regularly and not others that they may dislike
  • Noobs can play with other noobs if they so choose (meaning they are more likely to become regular users)
  • Users are less likely to find themselves in game alone
  • Host can wait as long or as little as they like before starting a mission
  • Less automation for you to program as the game host can call the shots
I hope this is helpful, and more than happy to discuss further.

Thanks, tBiggs
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Enabling Squad Wars 2 months 1 week ago #386053

  • zuperman
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Yes, I'm familiar with game rangers and the host your own game system. That doesn't work well on mobile phones at all because the app store restrict connections like that. They are always hosted by pc/mac which is not where most people play. Also, it adds a million other considerations, since you can have people abusing the system all over and the complexity of fixing that is way out of scope. It's out of the scope of squad wars for sure.
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